Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Jesus was the son of god, could walk on water and mess with matter in ways such as : turning bread into fish and water into wine. Jesus "definitely had powers" so why did jesus die on a puny cross? Are you trying to say that OT III is not doctrine because it sounds ridiculous? Then lets get rid of the book of mormon, the bible, the tora, koran, heck lets do away with science books since they must sound stupid to someone.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Let's not fall for Major Boyle's attempts to muddy up this thread with superstitious mumbo jumbo.

I have pooned 7 media outlets with this story and have sought an opinion from a legal scholar. What have you done?

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

glad to see this bit in the article:

and for those who missed it in other thread, ruling here:
269_Order on Motion for Summary Judgment

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

This imho means that once you enter the cult your civil rights are gone. This is very important to the public. Once you work there nobody can protect you. You are lost.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Continuing the case, the judge wrote, would require the court to analyze "the reasonableness of the methods" used to discipline Sea Org members and to prevent them from leaving. [As for Claire Headley's allegation about forced abortions*], Fischer said the court would have had to review Scientology's doctrine prohibiting Sea Org members from raising children.

"Inquiry into these allegations would entangle the court in the religious doctrine of Scientology and the doctrinally motivated practices of the Sea Org," wrote Fischer, a judge in the Central District of California.

* slight snip



Basicaly lazy U.S. District Judge Dale S. Fischer is lazy and cba to take the time and look into the allegations

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

THAT^^^ And it should be pointed out at every opportunity.
For what it's worth, this is what a lawyer friend of mine had to say about the ruling:

"Republican judges are like that--they are not sympathetic to plaintiffs. The argument, however, is ridiculous; you can make sexual harassment part of your religion? I guess that overturns the FLDS convictions! The Ninth Circuit is to the left of Thurgood Marshall--it will reverse any GOP District Court judge. Maybe the judge's clerks can grab her and point this out."

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

[SIZE="5"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Pedobear <3 "Ministerial Exception"[/FONT][/SIZE]

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Perhaps this reason alone the Headley's can appeal??

Summary judgment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Public Benefit Test for Religion in America!!!

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Scientology is the official state religion of the United States. The judge was merely protecting his/her job from being taken by the ruling priestly class.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

This is a bunch of BS.

A crime is a crime no matter what the situation. RAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE!

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Why are so many people in positions of power in the US (Sarah Palin, Sharron Angel, Dale Fischer) cozying up to people who commit human rights abuses in the name of religious freedom when the general trend in religious countries is to stop tolerating the crooks regardless of their selfish motivations?

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Does US law allow any appeal in this case?

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Thanks.

Ok - a couple of points - the ruling does not say, as some have suggested, that the 'ministerial exception' allows people to get away with crimes if they are religious ministers. It specifically addresses how a church may treat it's ministers. Which is a different question.

However [page 8] "Determining whether Scientology’s practices ... constitute involuntary servitude ... is precisely the type of entanglement that the Religion Clauses prohibit."

WTFuckityFuckF?!?!?!?!?!!!!!

I hereby ordain any 'slave' I might have now or in the future as a minister. (They're not really slaves, they just work for me for free and can't leave)

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

The US isn't leading the world in this matter.

I'd guess it's to do with Republican voters of Bible Belt types wanting to be free to do handle snakes or whatever else their interpretation of the Bible mandates.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

v Smith.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0494_0872_ZO.html

Last sentence at the bottom.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

^^^^THIS!!!

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Just google a dictionary definition. You are correct. <Sigh>.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Damn, the scibots are absolutely spamming the living shit out of the comment section.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Other religious organizations don't get a free break on doing illegal things to their members.

I mean, I guess I could understand if the judge simply said that there wasn't enough evidence, but she went all out and decided that whatever the hell's going on in there, it's okay because of the first amendment's guarantee to practice religion freely. Never mind basic human rights or the fact that criminal behavior is not protected under the constitution, no matter what religion is practicing it.

Were Catholic priests' religious rights being violated when they were thrown in jail for molesting little boys? What about Mormon leaders who forced incestuous relationships without the individuals' consent? Why is it okay for Scientology to get away with such things, and not anyone else?

I guess the freedom to violate the law comes easier, depending on how deep one's pockets are.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

This would have a large scale of agreement, both from citizens as well as government budget officials on state level, as well as regional, municpal, county and city level.

Majority are experiencing extreme tax revenue losses. While those corporations (cough lobbyists) and Wall Street mega banks and firms (cough lobbyists) are all giving the high-five on happy days are here again, most residents and small to mid-cap businesses (the majority) are struggling to avoid the ranks of foreclosures, bankruptcies, and unemployed or underemployed.

When budgets get cut to the bone and needs to be cut more somehow, many are looking for new innovative ways to pay the basics.

Religions and 501C status groups, if put to this test and fail, would provide just such increased revenue.

The question is: Who? Who is most likely to put this on the table, set it in motion, and have both the tenacity and supporting members to to push it through?

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

I noticed all the Scilon gloating this morning & thought Anon's were slacking.
But think about it, if a regular Joe public decided to read the article & then looked @ comment section it would be SO obvious a bunch of creepy Scilons are writing all the comments! Which makes the cult look even creepier!!

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

went back and saw that.
They are their own worst enemy and advertisement that cults are creepy

long live free speech

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

While it's true sci has deep pockets, I've personally suspected that it has to do with private eyes getting blackmail material or getting people in govt places to sniff around. However, today, more politicians, govt officials and judges are more educated and wise to sci's tactics. It does seem to me that this judge's reasons for ruling were fairly specious and not particularly based on law.
(The [Supreme] Court [through Justice Scalia's opinion] held that the First Amendment's protection of the "free exercise" of religion does not allow a person to use a religious motivation as a reason not to obey such generally applicable laws."

Glad to hear there's an appeal.
No stretch of imagination to think sci's will use every trick in their "oh so religious" book to shut this case down. Much is at stake.

It's interesting to note that sci hasn't yet at least tried to blitz the media with their so called "win". Wonder if it's because at least one person in PR realizes that it gives evidence of what they actually do underneath those religious cloaks.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

The cult wins one -- for the moment. There's still no way to save the whole rotten tomato, though.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a &quot;church&quot;

We have the technology.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a &quot;church&quot;

the good news is they can &quot;appeal&quot; it

the court decision not the tomato


theres a &quot;Mad Picket&quot; vibe to the comments on the SP Times article


Judge dismisses two lawsuits aimed at Scientology - St. Petersburg Times

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Of course, dahlink. (I pooned him as soon as I saw the judgment.)

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Ask the gloating scilons this:-
If David Miscavige and your "Church" is so innocent then why haven't they simply sued the St.Petersburg Times and all the sources for libel in the last 12 months or so since all these ex-scientologist's accounts were published? It's a rhetorical question because the answer is: It's all true, and furthermore, 10th grade educated David Miscavige is too afraid of being hauled into court because he'd likely incriminate himself.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Religious institutions are exempt from human trafficking laws? « Dialogue Ireland

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

So, scientology either
a) provided doctrinal or protected-choice based rationale for human trafficking, or
b) did not expressly disapprove of the human trafficking

In order to have the allegation against it dismissed by the court? Am I reading this excerpt correctly?

edit: I read further:

This fucking judge lets them have their human trafficking cake and eat their human trafficking cake at the same time what the fucking fuck.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

To quote Mr. Cruise in South Park "I'll sue you in England"
Sue them in a country were they're not a religion, like Germany.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Scientology wins legal victory, loses public image war

writer points out an obvious footbullet

read more
Scientology wins legal victory, loses public image war
digg
http://digg.com/world_news/Scientology_wins_legal_victory_loses_public_image_war

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

The problem seems to revolve around what the Founding Fathers meant by 'freedom of religion', and how far that can be extended into the 21st Century.

I would say that they were thinking of those religious groups that existed in 18th century America, that is Christian denominations. Furthermore, they were NOT saying that the USA should have freedom of religion, but that Congress should make no regulations restricting it. This still left the States free to make what laws they chose - a century earlier, Massachusetts had been hanging Quakers:
Boston martyrs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and supposed witches:
Salem witch trials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What the Judge is saying is that the case is pointless. Even if the plaintiffs could show that the CoS was, as part of its doctrine, requiring its members to break the law Congress, and therefore its servants the Courts, cannot act having barred itself from doing so. But Congress has so acted in the past:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EdmundsTucker_Act
By this Act the Church of Latter-Day Saints was dissolved because of its support for polygamy. Simply to survive, the LDS had to change its doctrine. It could no doubt be argued that Congress would not pass such a flagrantly unconstitutional Act today.

This is of course no bar to an appeal court deciding to 'reinterpret' what the Constitution says into something the Founding Fathers never meant. Some would say the courts have done this frequently already! They might for example conclude that 'religion' only refers to beliefs, not policy, and that religious organisations are not differently protected by the First Amendment.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Well, the founding father's had certainly not Scientology in mind, when they talked about freedom of religion. They might have had the idea in mind that religious organizations would generally care enough about its own employees and would therefore regulate themselves in an ethical manner, so that no secular labor law regulations are necessary for these organisations to protect its employees from exploitation unlike they are for purely profit oriented capitalist corporations.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

^Except that most of, if not all of the founding fathers, weren't Christians.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Scientology's classification of "minister" is completely loose and subject to situational morphing just like the religious/secular status of their fronts. (And how do they explain that the head offices of secular ABLE, Narconon, etc, are staffed by Scientology Sea Org "ministers"?)

I realize that the court would be leery of examining how real a religion's minister status is, but in Scientology, it's handed out after as much work and with as much ceremony as a bronze swimming certificate. And, by policy,* if there's no one certified as a minister when they need a public contact, they throw a minister's shirt at someone and they play the part.

We need a way to tie them down so that they can't do their presto-changeo trick when they think that no one is looking.

* http://www.lermanet.com/barwell/edward-walters-affidavit.txt

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Also, "Volunteer Ministers". An ordinary public schlub can put on a yellow shirt and suddenly be afforded special legal protections? Oh neat.

Re: Lawsuits against CoS dismissed because they're a "church"

Maybe we should stop giving religions special privileges enshrined in law so thugs like L. Ron Hubbard can't come along and game the system even after his death.