"Move for Senate Scientology inquiry fails" (Hayden Falconer email)

RevModemac · Dec 6, 2009

"Move for Senate Scientology inquiry fails" (Hayden Falconer email)

Move for Senate Scientology inquiry fails
[mod]Read carefully, and read the thread. There is more to this than the headline suggests[/mod]

basil · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

'One way to measure that is how law enforcement responds to any of these allegations. There has been no interest because there has been no evidence. Apostates are not credible witnesses, like former spouses or employees - they are trying to find a reason why they departed,''

Now where have I head that before...?

_You_ · Dec 6, 2009

Move for Senate Sci Inquiry fails

Move for Senate Scientology inquiry fails

_You_ · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

this is not good

CantPickaName · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Robert Adams, said every allegation tabled in Parliament by Senator Xenophon was ''meritless'', and many had been investigated and dismissed earlier by independent authorities.

independent authorities?

COB · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

You forgot the important part

A SENATE inquiry into the Church of Scientology will not go ahead after the Federal Government told the church it believed the Tax Office and police were the most appropriate authorities to investigate any complaints.

RightOn · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

WTF??
Yes.. I want to know who these "independent authorities" are and what were they paid?

EDITED....wait.....
so the police and the tax office other authorities will be looking into it for sure?

morizo · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Fail. But Xenophon will call for a vote. I hope he will be successful then.

_You_ · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

One way to measure that is how law enforcement responds to any of these allegations.

Indeed
Police investigate Scientology

A NSW police source said the claims were now in the hands of the state crime command's legal unit.

_You_ · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Tax Office and police getting involved = Good Stuff.

But the Senate can suck pedo dick for being such homogay faggotbutts.

The two main parties are a bunch of Fritzlfucking cowards

RightOn · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

The Senate turned it's back on abused Scientology victims, maybe that is the headline that should follow this news

MarlieK · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

"Apostates are not credible witnesses, like former spouses or employees - they are trying to find a reason why they departed,''

Rarely do I find someone who does not know why they left. Frequently the question asked is why they stayed so long.

MarlieK · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Well with that kind of favorable treatment from the Australian Senate, I think Scientology at the very least owes the Senators, their children & grandchildren a few free auditing sessions. Perhaps a free introduction with a Comm Course. They have clearly earned it.

JohnB2008 · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Jesus, imagine how stalked Nick X must be right now by PIs etc. At least Germany authorities are using surveillance to keep an eye on Scientology in Germany. There is no deterrent in Oz. He might actually end up dead. This is the most ballsy thing anyone has done ever.

Seriously, this guy at least deserves to be offered Witness Relocation, or something similar.

The investigative journalism must continue. The likes of Brian Seymour, around the world. Keep chipping away at their veil of secrecy.

I suspect Prime Minister Kevin Rudd just can't be arsed; taking on a mega-rich cult is going to be very fucking expensive. Even though they owe the public a duty of care.

The Aussie police are unlikely have the kind of powers & resources the BfV has.

It's an outrage but I kind of expected it.

_You_ · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

So two separate articles:

today:

Move for Senate Scientology inquiry fails
BARNEY ZWARTZ
December 7, 2009

A SENATE inquiry into the Church of Scientology will not go ahead after the Federal Government told the church it believed the Tax Office and police were the most appropriate authorities to investigate any complaints.

A staff member for the Leader of the Government in the Senate, Chris Evans, has emailed Scientologists who wrote to Senator Evans after an independent senator, Nick Xenophon, made a series of explosive allegations in the Senate last month.

The email, from Hayden Falconer, said it would be inappropriate to conduct an inquiry into a private, and in this case, religious organisation. He noted there was no precedent for the Senate to conduct such a targeted inquiry.

''It is not the role of the Parliament to inquire into the tax status of a particular organisation or individual, or to investigate criminal matters,'' the email says. ''The role of the Senate is to inquire into issues of public policy and public administration.''

The Opposition cited similar arguments in its rejection of an inquiry. Senator Xenophon will consequently lack the numbers to establish the inquiry.

But Senator Xenophon was undeterred. Yesterday he said he would call for a vote in February for an inquiry and did not accept the Government's argument. ''That's a cop out. The matters for police will quite rightly go to the police, but there are matters there that relate to civil law and issues of law reform in terms of the tax-free status,'' he said.

''If the major parties think that this is an issue that will go away, then they're kidding themselves.''

Last month Senator Xenophon tabled letters from several former Scientologists alleging that the church was guilty of coercing abortions, forced labour, obstructing justice and covering up child abuse. Life for Scientology staff, former members wrote, featured unbearable hours, constant punishments, lack of access to medical care, and sometimes physical abuse and imprisonment.

The vice-president of the Church of Scientology International, Robert Adams, said every allegation tabled in Parliament by Senator Xenophon was ''meritless'', and many had been investigated and dismissed earlier by independent authorities.

''One way to measure that is how law enforcement responds to any of these allegations. There has been no interest because there has been no evidence. Apostates are not credible witnesses, like former spouses or employees - they are trying to find a reason why they departed,'' Mr Adams said.

and

last Wednesday:

Police investigate Scientology
NICK O'MALLEY
December 2, 2009

NSW police are investigating allegations of abuse and bullying in the Church of Scientology made in a series of letters from former members tabled in Federal Parliament by independent senator Nick Xenophon.

The most senior executive to defect from the church, US-based Marty Rathbun, has said the allegations, including coercion to have abortions and donate money, were unwritten church policy, dictated from its head office, according to a speech by Greens MP John Kaye in the NSW upper house.

''My office is currently fully co-operating with a NSW police investigation into the organisation,'' Senator Xenophon said yesterday. He said a senior staff member had met officers from the NSW serious crimes squad two weeks ago, and that his office was gathering a dossier of hundreds more allegations, received since his speech last month, to provide to the police this week.

A NSW police source said the claims were now in the hands of the state crime command's legal unit.

Dr Kaye supported Senator Xenophon's call for a Senate inquiry into the church, though it is yet to receive support from the major parties.

Senator Xenophon said that his office had yet to be contacted by the Prime Minister's office ''despite Mr Rudd's comments about wanting to look at the evidence''.

The church's Australian president, Vicki Dunstan, denied all the allegations, saying that Senator Xenophon had abused parliamentary privilege and accusing Mr Rathbun of being an embittered liar.

whoever · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Apostates are not credible witnesses, like former spouses or employees - they are trying to find a reason why they departed,'' Mr Adams said.

So people who are smart enough to get out of lousy marriages or quit lousy jobs can never be trusted to say what was bad about them? That's just ridiculous.

CantPickaName · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

"Apostates are not credible witnesses, like former spouses or employees - they are trying to find a reason why they departed,''

using this logic, we can throw out anything scientology has to say about these people

if these "apostates" were all children saying "scientology touched my naughty bits" we would not still be waiting for an investigation

Anon99 · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

It's amazing what a person can do as long as they do it in the name of "religion".

So what are the odds that the police or tax authorities will act?

auchraw · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

It's all publicity Scientology could do without. The questions are not going to go away. Some of the members of the Senate know more about Scientology than they did a few weeks ago.

We still need to get them round this idea Scientology is a religion.

TinyDancer · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

_You_ · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Anon99;1092296 said:

It's amazing what a person can do as long as they do it in the name of "religion".

So what are the odds that the police or tax authorities will act?

The tax authorities are stuck with the legislation that parliament gives them... which is why parliament has to inquire into whether or not the legislation is adequate.

Anonydon · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

With most culties having lower than standard educations and level of drop-outs, why aren't journalists refusing to print their babble and use "grown-up" words? Seems like the tail is once again wagging the dog.

befmilne · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

This is not news, really. We have known for at least the last week that neither the ALP nor the Coalition are going to officially support the move for a senate inquiry, that is exactly why Xenophon did not initiate the vote in the last week of parliament.

Xenophon has until February to convince his colleagues that this issue is worth investigating, and that the Senate is the correct place to conduct such an investigation. I am hopeful that he will be successful in doing so.

There has not yet been a vote, so saying that the move has failed is quite misleading.

_You_ · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Move for Senate Scientology inquiry fails
BARNEY ZWARTZ
December 7, 2009

A SENATE inquiry into the Church of Scientology will not go ahead after the Federal Government told the church it believed the Tax Office and police were the most appropriate authorities to investigate any complaints.

A staff member for the Leader of the Government in the Senate, Chris Evans, has emailed Scientologists who wrote to Senator Evans after an independent senator, Nick Xenophon, made a series of explosive allegations in the Senate last month.

The email, from Hayden Falconer, said it would be inappropriate to conduct an inquiry into a private, and in this case, religious organisation. He noted there was no precedent for the Senate to conduct such a targeted inquiry.

''It is not the role of the Parliament to inquire into the tax status of a particular organisation or individual, or to investigate criminal matters,'' the email says. ''''The role of the Senate is to inquire into issues of public policy and public administration

I feel the above statement is self explanatory.

Protip.

1- get police investigation
2- get tax man investigating
3- use goverment as media TOOL
4- profit?

_You_ · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

befmilne;1092307 said:

This is not news, really. We have known for at least the last week that neither the ALP nor the Coalition are going to officially support the move for a senate inquiry, that is exactly why Xenophon did not initiate the vote in the last week of parliament.

Xenophon has until February to convince his colleagues that this issue is worth investigating, and that the Senate is the correct place to conduct such an investigation. I am hopeful that he will be successful in doing so.

There has not yet been a vote, so saying that the move has failed is quite misleading.

Right. Plus, as the Sen Xen has said before, if there is a vote and it fails, there's nothing to stop him introducing a new vote the next day. (Obviously not idea. but he's going to be a "persistent bastard", so they'll need to articulate their reasons coherently and well.

RightOn · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Scientolpogy is going to use this as a big PR win, whether or not they knew it would come out this way or not. Of course COS will leave out the tax and police investigations

_You_ · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

I don't know if we should be blaming the Senators for taking bribes, or acting unfairly yet.

The email, from Hayden Falconer, said it would be inappropriate to conduct an inquiry into a private, and in this case, religious organisation. He noted there was no precedent for the Senate to conduct such a targeted inquiry.

''It is not the role of the Parliament to inquire into the tax status of a particular organisation or individual, or to investigate criminal matters,'' the email says. ''The role of the Senate is to inquire into issues of public policy and public administration.''

The Opposition cited similar arguments in its rejection of an inquiry.

They have never acted on a response like this before. They don't feel that this is in their job description.

I am still uncertain what the Senate would investigate if this passed would it be calling in Cyrus Brooks and others to answer questions in front of the Senate ? I am not familiar with the government in Oz. But if it is like the US they can be asked to pass laws against coerced abortion and strengthen their human trafficking laws, like the US has asked them.

Recommendations
The [Bush] U.S. Department of State recommends [recommeneded] that the Australian government should devote more attention and resources to addressing allegations of labor trafficking, including in connection with its 457 worker visa program.16 The Australian NGO, the Anti-Slavery Project recommended that Australia do the following: 1) Reform the current visa regime to protect ALL victims of trafficking and slavery. A victim-centered visa regime will prevent the re-trafficking and re-enslavement of victims regardless of their cooperation with authorities; 2) Adequately resource and implement a victim support program that effectively meets the needs of survivors of trafficking and slavery by providing comprehensive and culturally appropriate services. The current victim service program provides a certain level of services to victims of trafficking who are participating in law enforcement processes. However it is our experience that the level of support is variable and can be inadequate to meet the needs of victims leaving them vulnerable to violence, exploitation and endangerment of their ability to cooperate with law enforcement

Grips it by the Husk · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

I've always been under the opinion that Parliaments rarely act until after court decisions. Police, lawyers, crown attorneys and judges have a greater grasp on what the law is than back bench members of parliament or senators. Also there is reduced political risk acting after the courts have shown the cult to be criminal than before. A Senator can then say to the cult lobbyists that the criminal prosecutions force us to act.

DeathHamster · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

whoever;1092291 said:

So people who are smart enough to get out of lousy marriages or quit lousy jobs can never be trusted to say what was bad about them? That's just ridiculous.

I'm sure that Scientology spread a lot of money around the cult apologists to get the "Apostates are not credible witnesses" opinion widely published. (Mind you, they probably pooled with other groups like the Moonies, Children of God, etc.)

Sure, stories from apostates have to be examined carefully, fact-checked when possible, compared with other stories and against the version from the organization that they left. To simply throw out all apostate stories is the mark of a fraudulent scholar, or at least a fiscally negotiable one.

It's funny how Scientology's credibility is never examined, after all, they are the other party in those messy divorces, and they always demonize people who publicly leave. They all have crimes, and were kicked out because they couldn't meet the high ethics standard in Scientology, blah blah blah... What, all of them!? How likely is that, especially with long-time high ranking members?

Ann O'Nymous · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

My 2 cents:
- An independant senator cannot expect to win majorities easily.
- Analyzing the rationale of the main parties' refusal would help understanding what they really dislike in his proposal.
- Perhaps he could focus his proposal on the less problematic aspects for the time being.
- He could become the watchdog for the police inquiry and keeping pressure on them.

mrfyde · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

whoever;1092291 said:

Apostates are not credible witnesses, like former spouses or employees - they are trying to find a reason why they departed,'' Mr Adams said.

So people who are smart enough to get out of lousy marriages or quit lousy jobs can never be trusted to say what was bad about them? That's just ridiculous.

And once again the cult wants it both ways, if someone outside the cult is a critic, they ask if they have ever been involved with "the church" and if they say "no" they tell them that they have no frame of reference, if they go and see for themselves they "are not credible witnesses" unless they say "the church" is wonderful.

CantPickaName · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

RightOn;1092312 said:

Scientolpogy is going to use this as a big PR win, whether or not they knew it would come out this way or not. Of course COS will leave out the tax and police investigations

reminds me of my gambling friends that tell me they won 100 bucks on a game ..then i remind them they lost 300 the previous week

CantPickaName · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

mrfyde;1092340 said:

And once again the cult wants it both ways, if someone outside the cult is a critic, they ask if they have ever been involved with "the church" and if they say "no" they tell them that they have no frame of reference, if they go and see for themselves they "are not credible witnesses" unless they say "the church" is wonderful.

whenever im asked if i had ever been in their "Church" i say "No....but ive never been in a crack house either"

xenubarb · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

CantPickaName;1092294 said:

using this logic, we can throw out anything scientology has to say about these people

if these "apostates" were all children saying "scientology touched my naughty bits" we would not still be waiting for an investigation

Oddly, the MRs' ex-wives were dragged out to discredit their former husbands. By Scientology. Quoted in the SP Times.

It reminds me of the repeated Scilon statement that you "can't trust anything you read on the internet."

This, just prior to launching an advertising blitz that ended with a simple URL...scientology.org

These people would be laughable if they weren't so dangerous.

mrfyde · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

xenubarb;1092348 said:

Oddly, the MRs' ex-wives were dragged out to discredit their former husbands. By Scientology. Quoted in the SP Times.

It reminds me of the repeated Scilon statement that you "can't trust anything you read on the internet."

This, just prior to launching an advertising blitz that ended with a simple URL...scientology.org

These people would be laughable if they weren't so dangerous.

But... they always say if you want to find out the truth about somebody you shouldn't ask their ex-spouse.

iaxiloll · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

I am slightly upset.

timid sparrow · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

Don't freak out about this yet. This is only a letter from one of the senators that the paper is reporting about and making assumptions about.

please check thread about this on ESMB, it is known about and a PR action by some of the politicians. Read the thread and it will make sense.

Please don't buy into the PR BS you've seen from some of the Oz pollies. - Ex Scientologist Message Board

3rdMan · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

^^^This (edit)

Thanks timid-sparrow. That bit of info should be added to the OP.

timid sparrow · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

3rd man, I don't know how to do that. can you tell me how?

Anon1720 · Dec 6, 2009

Re: Aussie government rejects Xenophon's request to investigate Scientology

This sucks but am not surprized by the government reaction.

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"Move for Senate Scientology inquiry fails" (Hayden Falconer email)

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