Public Benefit Test - hearing schedule published

Public Benefit Test - hearing schedule published

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Economics: Inquiry into the Tax Laws Amendment (2010 Measures No 1) Bill 2010 - Day 1

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Economics: Inquiry into Tax Laws Amendment (Public Benefit Test) Bill 2010 - Day 2

Highlights to include Dr Stephen Mutch and some ESMB Exes early on Monday, and Larry Brennan on Tuesday

EDIT: The submissions themselves can be found here - http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/economics_ctte/public_benefit_test_10/submissions.htm

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*Stephen Mutch

re: Public Benefit Test - hearing schedule published

PBT = ?

Bracing for epic PBTness, whatever it is....

re: Public Benefit Test - hearing schedule published

Public Benefit Test

re: Public Benefit Test - hearing schedule published

A brief breakdown for Day 1:

Dr Stephen Mutch, the ESMB roundtable, Cult Information and Family Support, Charity Commission of New Zealand, Atheist Foundation of Australia, UK Charities Commission - All should be positive towards the inquiry.

Mr Andrew Lind - The lawyer from submission 2 - Won't be positive towards the inquiry, but may be interested in helping solve the Scientology problem.

Church of Scientology and their shill lawyer, Ms Louise McBride - Obviously won't be supporting the inquiry.


Looking like a great day I think!

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is this hearing public?
or get reacoding?

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Public hearing AFAIK, and the transcripts should be available afterwards, but I doubt there'll be recording allowed.

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It's scheduled to be webcast...so if anyone has the capacity to capture the video stream that would be cool!

Parliament of Australia: Live Broadcasting (see 28th & 29th of June)

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Intrigued by : Monday 6:00pm-7:00pm UK Charities Commission (submission 41) (via teleconference)

Hope they're aware of the TT report. Hope UK anon will take steps to find out who and ensure whomever is fully up to date!

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Linkage to submissions is where please?

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Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Economics Committee: Tax Laws Amendment (Public Benefit Test) Bill 2010: Submissions Received

Re: Public Benefit Test - hearing schedule published

Looking at the schedules it appears almost everyone, except $cientology, gets 45 minutes to present their case. For some reason $cientology gets 2-1/2 hours.

Since this hearing isn't specifically about $cientology, why are they getting over three times as much time as everyone else?

Something stinks here.

BigBeard

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more time needed for Tommy Davis's stuttering?

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Webcast? Excellent!

Thanks for the info.

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Could be a good thing actually...might indicate that the committee has many questions for them....and *fingers crossed* they won't be about fluffy bunnies and rainbows!

Anyway, could mean that they're in for a grilling! And could mean some Scientology-spokesperson epic verbal footbullets will be immortalized for all time in Hansard!

Too optimistic? Anyway, I am sooo hoping this is what will happen!

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Re: Public Benefit Test - hearing schedule published

I will do my best to record the entire event.

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Here's what I want to hear:

Scilon: We help people get off drugs! We have helped 500,000 people get off drugs!

Govt: Would that be through Narconon?

Scilon: Yes, we have them all over the world getting people off drugs.

Govt: But these documents all state that Narconon is NOT part of Scientology!

Scilon: <sputters> We have drug education programs in schools that teach millions of kids.

Govt: (holds up moar dox) You mean, the program that was expelled from public schools in California, Hawaii, Boston MA and Buffalo NY?

Well, you get the idea. Would like to see every cult argument trumped by dox of fraud, abuse, fraud and junk science. And fraud.

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To my mind none of this has anything to do with whether or not there should be a public benefit test, just whether or not the scilons will pass it or not.

The response to all claims of good things should really be:

Govt: Good then you won't mind a public benefits test will you?

Scilons: No, we didn't say that, we were just saying how good we were.

Govt: Well if you are good then you can't possibly have a problem with a public benefit test since your sure you will pass.

Scilons: No, we didn't say that...

Govt: So what you saying, you're not sure you are good?

Scilons: No, we didn't say that...

Govt: Good, moving on then...

Frankly I think the scilons will spend a long time trying to rubbish the idea of a public benefits test using the following arguments:

1. No need for it
2. Religious bigotry
3. Too complex for small organisations to deal with, think of the little people.
4. Too costly for small organisations to deal with, think of the little people.
5. Who will administer this very complex test? (No one is qualified to handle the complex area of religion)
6. what is a benefit anyway, we know we are the only ones who can provide a real benefit so....

I really hope they try 6.

Interesting that the atheists come right after them. All religion should be free from taxation and interference from the state verses all religion should be taxed and properly regulated by the state all after lunch.

2.5 hours allows for the lunch to digest too.

I really hope all this obfuscation goes in ear and out the other.

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Is there any possible scenario that isn't lulzific?

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Anyone read the Church of Scientology submission written by barrister Louise Mc Bride?

They're arguing that the bill and explanatory memorandum is unconstitutional, outside of the powers of the Senate, and a misuse of parliamentary privledge.

If someone is adept at reading legalese, I'd love some feedback on the nuances of their arguments:

Submission: Tax Laws Amendment (Public Benefit Test) Bill 2010

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any services scientology charges for (narconon, ie) shouldn't be included since it isnt public benefit (paid for service is not charity)

what is the position of the other speakers? there are a few representatives from charitable groups, I would think they would be in favor of a public benefits test, but you never know.

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1.5 hours you mean. I bet they baawwed hard for it too. Also, [STRIKE]straight after,[/STRIKE] at the same time, the barrister-at-law who was used in the cult's submission Louise McBride in a "private capacity" (yeah riiight) also [STRIKE]gets [/STRIKE]shares the 1.5 hours. wtf?
Total [STRIKE]3 hours[/STRIKE] 1.5 hours of straight cult flavoured baaaww.

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Louise McBride - Ground Floor Wentworth Chambers Sydney Barristers
Looking at the list of publications, she sounds like the Anne Coulter of tax lawyeriness.

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Two observations:

1) the cult has the most documents (6, of which 4 are confidential (wtf - lol)) so maybe the time relates to the quantity of info to work through.

2) most of the (legitimate) charity submissions, while perhaps arguing against the bill AS IT STANDS, are basically pleading for a quango (charities commission or whatever) to bring the current complex and fragmented bureaucracy and rules under a single umbrella, and in those circumstances support a public benefit test.

So the bill might be seriously revised, and that might take time, but hopefully the outcome will be something beyond even what our favourite senator was aiming for.

Final note to the aussies - many 'anti' submissions conflate 'charitable organisation' with 'religious organisation', and might read somewhat differently if the two were seen as the same thing - the whole 'advancement of religion' being a 'charitable purpose' is going to be key I suspect.

inb4cultnotreligion

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One thing that does stick out is that the state of charity in Australia is in a right fucking mess. I dunno, maybe I've just been spoiled a bit by living somewhere with a Charity Commission which is actually able to sort the wheat from the chaff. If ever I wanted to retire early with a little sideline income for doing absolutely fuck all, tax free, then I'd go to Adelaide and set up the Church of Wombat Poop. Apparently it's dead easy.

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Eh, first other anons are saying 2.5 hours, now you're saying 3 hours?

The website clearly shows:

2:00pm–3:30pm : Church of Scientology (submission 66)
2:00pm–3:30pm : Ms Louise McBride (Private capacity)

They are on at the same time, its 1.5 hours and its shared.

Most of the others are 45 minutes so I guess they just doubled that, though if they do it at the same time there isn't really a need to double the time.

Here is the link direct to the comittee's broadcast : Parliament of Australia: Live Broadcasting

Really glad to see its being filmed! This is NOT one to miss, I will also try recording the streams, and I encourage others to do the same in case some of us fail.

Edit: looks like its the same stream all times, the direct stream link is here : http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/asx2/hms10v_100K.asx - run it in VLC.

Edit: If there is only one stream what happens when theres more then one event happening?

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That's a point I honestly hadn't considered. Thanks for posting it.

edit: if I did my math right, the committee hearings start evening-time in the US give or take a little depending on timezone, that should make it easy to watch (it is currently 9:30am friday in sydney, 4:30pm thurs in california)

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Hopefully it won't just be the Inquiry but we'll get some additional media as well.

And I really hope the cult do "the usual" and try to stack the public gallery with "OTs" to try to "cave us evil SPs in"

It promises to be an interesting day in Parliament House.

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If you look at the url, it has "hms10v....." which is describing the venue. So house of reps will be located at "hms1v...", senate at "hms2v...", and so on for the various places that the committees are being held.

So yep, there is more than one stream.

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Ahhhh I seeeee.
So the criminal cult needs the assistance of a barrister (just in case they slip up when questioned).

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Holy wall o' text. Looks like one huge baaaaaawfest. Near as I can see from skimming, they are also claiming religious persecution (what a shock). Can any legalfags summarize or bullet point the scilon submission into something understandable?

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Not a legalfag, but I'd take a punt that the initial point about laws imposing taxation being required to be initiated from the lower house will fly (I only read the first couple of pages).

I predict a drawn out process, resulting eventually in the Senate findings resulting in the passing of a new bill initiated from the House of Representatives, reflecting some recommendation from the Senate inquiry, probably being more substantial (eg: the establishment of something equivalent to the Charities Commissions per NZ and the UK, to, independently of the Government and the Internal Revenue, determine charitable status.

Which will probably take a couple of years.

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Here is the text of scientology's beginning and ending summaries of their submission

(The full submissions can be found in link in OP)
Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Economics Committee: Tax Laws Amendment (Public Benefit Test) Bill 2010: Submissions Received

/ edit

Point 11 - curious that references to Criminon, Way To Happiness and Applied
Scholastics fronts are missing. Narconon, VMs, and Youth for Human Rights front
groups are implied in their list.

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How in Xenu's name can a 'Public Benefits Test' be religious persecution if it applies to all non-profits equally, whether their a religion or not???

You'd think that somehow they got it in their Hubbard trained brains this will only apply to $cientology, and didn't read the actual bill.

Sheesh!

BigBeard

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And here is scilon's lawyer Louise Mc Bride's summary (Attachment one).

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It's no wonder the senate doubled-up on the time slots. The submissions are basically the same - one just has more legalese. Lol.

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Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Economics: Inquiry into Tax Laws Amendment (Public Benefit Test) Bill 2010

DAY 2 Schedule:
12:15pm–1:00pm Mr Larry Brennan (via teleconference)

Go get 'em Larry!

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First part of their argument basically states that an attached document EM refers to Scientology and therefore breaks some serious law regarding the definition of religion as guaranteed in the constitution, so therefore they are playing the persecuted card citing precedent cases on Scientology, namely the victorian banning. Because some ex members have made complaints but no evidence presented this they argue is the domain of the states. Further, because there is doubt as to who may be determined as valued to public good the minister should not have the right to say who may or may not be, and cite good precedence. In other words they say the public benefits test is indeterminable and prone to discrimination by the government, therefore being unlawful to the constitution. The wording "benefit or harm" is prone to personal preference and therefore "vague and unreasonable to administer".

Because xenophon used parliamentary privilege to produce document EM he should stand before the parliamentary privileges committee.

If the bill was passed and Scientology was found to be unfit, then they could fight it on the grounds that xenophone had preempted a decision in the regulators mind.

How i read it: They are playing religious freedom card and trying to scare the government into submission by threat of US political lobbying. In other words they are trying to shame the government if it proceeds.

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IANAL, but imho the bill is not "imposing taxation where none was imposed before", because it isn't introducing a new tax.